Watch The Beat with Ari Melber Highlights: March 22 | MSNBC

the legal and political world on edgeafter Donald Trump predicted his ownarrest in New York while his lawyersfiled this new attack in a Georgia Courtwe heard from one of them last nightTrump's side lost another huge blow inthe classified documents case in D.C ifNew York does move first it could bethe lowest or most kind of minorpotential crime of all these probes it'sa case that boils down to falsifyingbusiness records that's not nothingbut it's not a violent insurrectionand as the days have gone by since Trumppredicted his own arrests would happenyesterday which it didn't as I'vementioned tonight some are arguing thenew case doesn't sound like a seriouschargeso just put Donald Trump's Defendersaside they're going to say what they'regoing to say even some of his criticslike never Trump or Bill Crystalquestioning the business records case inNew York right here on the beatconvicting him what six years later forsomething that happened eight yearsbefore that when he paid hush moneybasically to cover something upwhen John Edwards did sort of didsomething comparable and didn't getconvicted I think it's gonna be veryhardso that's one view of the case and someof this may all sound quite dry butlet's be clear according to the law thecharge would not be any kind of outlierfalse business records charges are thebread and butter of the New York DA'soffice that's how the times put it todayand that's exactly what a veteran of theDA's office before this Times articleout article came out told usI know that it can sometimes seem as ifthese are technical crimes but in factthey are serious and this is the breadand butter of the DA's office this ishow we hold powerful people to accountwhat is the bread and butter these thesestatutes that make it so that it's acrime to lie on your business recordsand especially if you're doing it inorder to commit some other kind of crimethere you have it so people who don'tfollow this office or New York mighthave a kind of politicized or trumpianview about what a big crime is andthere's also a separate question overwhether anyone should be allowed to usean Insurrection as a means to argue downother bad things they may have donebut when you keep hearing this termbread and butter that means this is asstandard as the bread and butter youmight get at a New York diner that it ispart of the standard operating procedurenow let's put the food analogies to theside if you are on the East Coastgetting ready for dinner I hope Ihaven't made you too hungry but take alook at the facts in the brief timesince Bragg took office prosecutorsthere have filed a hundred and Seventeenfelony counts of this exact charge overthe last year bread and butter now wewant to go to the source for someone whoknows all about this Dan Horowitz is aformer Manhattan assistant D.A focusingoncomplex white-collar crimes includingthese kind of crimes he also we shouldknow served on the transition team forManhattan district attorney Alvin Braggthanks for being here thanks for havingme uh you are one of the most uhexperienced skilled people to discussexactly this so I'm really glad you'rehere tonight well that's what my kidsthink too yeah thanks for having me okayand your kids agree with the bar I don'tknow I don't know how informed they areas legal experts but that's great youlook at this do you agree with whatothers have said that this is a standardoperating I do I do and I was in thatoffice for almost 10 years Prosecutingcomplex White Collar cases and and youknow you indicated the stats under D.ABragg I brought many falsifying businessrecord casesum it is the bread and butter and andpart of what makes the crime Insidiousand and I wouldn't get caught up inwhether it's a a felony or a B felony oran E felony it's a felony that's aserious crime and for most people peoplefor you and me and I guarantee you formost of the audience watching if theywere asked would you like to beconvicted of a felony I guarantee youeven if it's a low-level felony Iguarantee you the answer would be no soit's a felony it's serious and whatmakes this crime particularly Insidiousis that you're not just falsifyingrecords of your own company or your theinstitution where you're working butyou're doing it with an intent to commitanother crime now in this particularcase it would seem and and we'll seewhere the grand jury comes out that thecrime that the false the false recordswere linked to is one of either taxfraud for not properlycharacterizing the the payoff money as abusiness deduction or as a violation ofNew York's criminal campaign statutesand I would suggest to you that thoseare two crimes that implicate the publicTrust you're talking about the publicFisk a tax crime and campaign Financeright you're saying the stakes are highwhen you look at this alleged crime ontop of the context when you bring a caselike this what kind of evidence do youtypically have well you have witnessesand you have documents obviously it goeswithout saying it's a records case soyou need records you need records toshow that the that the entries werefalse and you need witnesses to explainthat so you need somebody to talk abouthow does the business operate what do weput in our books and Records ordinarilyand you need evidence to show why thoseentries were false and you also needsomebody or Witnesses and evidence tolink to that other crime let me run ahypothetical sure because I think you'rethe guy I mean you're the guy here uh-ohlet's say that you put a hundredthousand plus uh towards your lawyer andyour lawyer does something and all ofthat money goes to somebody elsesay in an adult film star and you saywell yeah but my lawyer bailed me I paidmy lawyerafter that it's out of my hands what isthe defense uh what's the level of thatdefense is in in your office how howworried would you be about that defenseso so that's a great question becausethat's obviously I think going to be oneof the defenses if in fact the dad Isaid hypothetically right so we'retalking hypothetical the answer isyou're going to have anticipated thatbecause you have to link the evidence ofthe false record and the intent tocommit the other crime and I'm askingyou how strong is that defense I I thinkthat under the circumstances from whatI've seen in the case and reading in thepapers and the and the and the MichaelCohen play you've got an Insider who hada front row seat to exactly whathappened and you would need under NewYork state law you've got to havecorroborating evidence but is that astrong or weak defensethat is a common defense havingrepresented yeah executive is it strongor weak or medium is it strong itdepends on the witnesses and theevidence well how about in this case Iwould say in this case I think thatunder the circumstances from what weknow hypothetically about the personwe're talking about this is somebody whois intimately involved in the operationsof their organization a smallorganization with a limited number ofpeople so is it it's weak to say I hadno idea if I would say that it is not aparticularly compelling okay so that'sDefense number one in all seriousnesssomeone at a very large company wherethere's a million things going on mightbe able to distance themselves from afalse absolutely here you're making thepoint that this involved them personallyit's not oh there was some lighting billfor some other subsidiary it's sort oftheir own life and they were involvedand they paid it back now let me bringyou to number two that's one defenseright another defense is and again Imentioned we try to hear from everybodyuh Donald Trump's New York Mr takopinasaid even if it was misleading it's notreally a good enough business record foryou to use back when you were doingthese kind of cases you're alreadysmiling I'm going to play you MrTuckerman says it's not really a goahead I don't even know what that meanswhat do you mean it's not a goodbusiness well let me show you becausethis is why we're doing it what do youmean he says if it's personal and it'sprivate and it's not really businessit's like writing something down likeyou bought a horse take it take a listento John okayeven if you put in your checkbook oriPad I'll use me as an example I put inmy checkbook I bought a car and I wroteuh I purchased a horse that's that'sinaccurate that's a lie maybe butthere's no crime there because therethis filing was not for the purpose ofinfluencing an election to me if they'repursuing this matter it's weaponizingthe justice system to keep this guy outof office he says it's like a checkbookprivate note not a business record thatyou could charge yeah well I couldn'tdisagree more strongly with Joe takapinaon this it's a business record you'rewriting a check for the companyum that is a business record and there'shundreds of years of law that say thatin New York under the federal system youlook at other states that have similarstatues this is just not even a questionI mean the fact that we're actuallyhaving it sounds like you think I don'tput words in your mouth it sounds likeyou think that type I showed in firstoffense we talked about it sounds likeyou think that second defense is sort ofalmost silly or or beneath discussion Ijust think it's laughable laughablebecause if if paying for something inyour business isn't a business recordthen what is a business yeah I mean Ithink the First Defense as they said aminute ago it is a common defense fordefense lawyers representing Executivesand you said it yourself in a largecompany there's a lot that goes onpeople get cc'd on email chains rightthat's not the organization that we'retalking about which is why I think thatparticular defense is not so compellingunder the circumstances and you knowwhat Sean Carter Jay-Z said what's thatdo you know I do notI'm not a businessmanI'm a businessman now let me handle mybusiness damn and if you are thebusiness if you're Jay-Z You're thebusiness you're Trump or you are Trumpor I think you're going to have legallya harder time just just associatingyourself from your business records manthe possible indictment of a formerpresident is big news and that formerpresident has hyped his own arrest whichdid not come on the day he choseyesterday now top Outlets like say theNew York Times are putting this storystill important but below the fold todaya sign that the undeniably hugedevelopment will be huge if or when itcomes but it's not even the New YorkTimes top story as the world Waits Imentioned that because the paper stillhas several different stories and angleson this Prospect today including onewith this remarkable lead reading fromthe times quote Donald J Trump claimshe's readyfor his purp walkit draws on accounts that Trump istelling people he welcomes the idea ofbeing paraded for any purp walk and hismulling weather he should style andsmile I should say in his own style andwhether or how to Brand any commotionwhen that day does come if it comes nowlegally in New York a perp walk isunlikely under standard procedure if thearraignment is cooperative now Trump'sbeen bracing for all this after Decadesof legal problems or criminalinvestigations a date back to the 70sclashes with the IRS and otherRegulators his Reliance on the infamouslawyer Roy Cohn of course his classeswith the doj as presidentso there's a lot to choose from and alot of times that he has evaded theultimate punishment now the New YorkTimes article also details some recentscenes of Mar-A-Lago to reinforcereporting that Trump seems actuallysignificantly disconnected from theseverity of his potential woes the timesreports on a recent evening where Trumpacted as DJ at a party with hispersonally curated Spotify playlistsknown favorites include the RollingStones and fan of the Opera nowthe fact is Donald Trump wouldn't reallybe the first DJ to try to rock a crowdwhile eyeing trouble with the law butthe larger Point according to his aidesis that he's gotten away so many timeshe might not understand that gettingindicted criminally would be differentat least at the start of the processthan all those other timeshe is also meanwhile trying to get hisown fans and supporters to send himmoney based on the potential indictmentand casting this as a brandingopportunity according to reporting so aswe look at all the aspects of this weare thrilled to bring back a friend ofthe show you may recall from so manyTrump era scandals Barbara res was atrump org executive for most recent bookis Tower of Lies with my 18 yearsworking with Donald Trump reveals abouthim and she is a tried and true NewYorker we are also joined by formerWatergate prosecutor Nick Ackermanwelcome to both of you thank you thankyou Barbara he's talking about his purpwalk which may or may not happen withhis aides and he wants to quote brandthis what do you see here well it'stypical Donald Trump he takes lemons interms of its lemonade and can thisbecome lemonade yeah I think so from hispoint of view yes absolutely well I meanyou know he's uh he he's got this uhlook at me I I don't take any crap I'llstand up to this guy you know and I'myou know my supporters know that I'm notguilty and be honest with you I think hesort of doesn't believe that it'shappening or it's happening but hedoesn't believe that he is going to gethurt you think he's in a denial see it'skind of a denial it's just this positivethinking thing that is I mean ever sinceI know him it's always he believes inthe power of positive thinking yeahabsolutely you know the kids nowadaysthey call that manifestingmanifest it I believe it will come yeahso I mean I think that he doesn't thinkthat he's going to be uh he probablyacknowledges that he's going to beindicted but he doesn't think he's beinggoing to be convicted one more questionon the image of that before I bring inNick there are certain things that areharder to spend in life I it's certainlytrue in Donald Trump in business in hismedia career television including NBCran The Apprentice for many years andyou knew him as well as in politics hegrasped that in a way that other peopledidn't people can debate the the resultsof that and the harm potentially of thatbut he did grasp that not everythingthey say is negative has to be negativeabsolutely and my question to you isthere are some things that are differentuh if you deal with a big enough Scandalor crisis if you deal with a for examplea legal crisis where you lose controlyou're out of your own control it's veryhard to look and I think Nick can we'llspeak to this next very hard to looklike you're powerful and in control whenyou are literal Libertyis at the control of to some degree theprosecutors in the pre-trial period andthen ultimately a jury of your peers doyou think he knows how to brand thatyeah I think he's already done it I youknow I've got the best lawyers uh thesephysicists of Witch Hunt uh specificallymotivated of course I'm I'm not I'm notguilty and I won't be found guiltythat's that's the way he's treating itit's like it's not real it's not youknow something that will come intofruition it's not he's not responsibleand emotionally do you think he'll befine through this because it'll be likeso many other things that he's clearlyfound his way through I mean there arepeople who would have gotten morepanicked and stressed by things he wasup against than him yeah well you know II read something where they were sayingoh he's uh you know he was always afraidof being arrested and uh and he's reallyafraid I I only feel I'm afraid once inmy life what was that when he waslooking at a potential personalbankruptcy in the early 90s wheneverything fell apart that and he wasafraid of that but I'm afraid I can'timagine him being how did he act when hewas afraid why he was pretty quiet and Idon't understand I haven't seen himquiet well you know he has this uh dealmaker guy of Steve Bowen back who didall the deals with the bank and all thatstuff it wasn't trump it was alldisgusting and he let him run with itand he listened to him and he didn'tcontradict them really so you saw adeference that you never usually sawbefore I bring in Nick as well I forgotto ask you the time says he's DJingRolling Stones fan of the Opera doesthat ring true to you ah yeah you knowI'll tell you something funny uhthe uhI said onceTrump must have gotten wind of it andthere was a quote that he was playing uhand he was in his limo with the windowsup and Blasting Guns and Roses Iguarantee you that Trump had no idea inthe world who asked the Roses or whatGuns and Roses was he just you know hepicked it up okay uh Nick your thoughtswell I I'm sure he wasn't playingJailhouse Rock as a DJ the other nightlook at this guy I love it um I meanlook this is serious I mean it's notjust the indictment in New York we'realso talking about the indictment inGeorgia which is going to be a wholedifferent level in terms of criminalityand you think that could be coming we'llput on the screen Nick there's severalyou can walk us oh I I think it's goingto be coming mid-april on what we didn'trealize before and I didn't was thatwhen the special grand jury came down itwas really right in the middle of whenFulton County had its two sitting grandjuries in session and the regular Grandinjuries didn't start again until March1st so the D.A in Fulton County reallydidn't have an opportunity to presentuntil starting on March 1st so we're ittakes some time to put in this evidenceand to educate a regular jury as to allof these facts that were found by thespecial grand jury and as we've toldfolks you faced off against RichardNixon he had his appeals to silentmajority he had attacks on the Pressjust like Trump did they're similar insome ways different than others whenyou've seen someone with a publicfollowing try to as we said brand thisprocess how do you think that works itdidn't work very well for Richard NixonI mean in the end it was his closestsupporters that showed up in the OvalOffice led by Barry Goldwater who wasthe yeahbranding efforts failed I want to showyou on the serious legal side what wedid here you mentioned the Georgia casethis was the first time one of Trump'sGeorgia lawyers has come on MSNBC andmade his defense this was last night Ihave several pieces of it and kind of a40 second highlight I wanted to get yourlegal analysis let's take a lookwe became public when we heard from theforeperson she kind of gave us a lensinto what we were suspicious of whichwas just a kind of a clown show in therewas it a illegal and B wrong for him totry to steal the Georgia results afterthe state had been duly certified ourclient did not break any law how is thatnot soliciting or conspiring fraud weare absolutely confident having lookedat the evidence that our client has notviolated any of those do you acknowledgethat Donald Trump lost Georgia yeah soI'm Ari I I am not going to startgetting into Political statements but doyou do you ignore the Donald Trump butthat's what I stay focused on do youacknowledge that Donald Trump lost theGeorgia electionI I I'm I am that's a good that's aneasy one do you acknowledge that Drew nonoNick first of all the idea that therewas anything wrong with that specialgrand jury or with what Emily Coors saidto the Press is totally off base andtotally wrong she was supported by judgeMcBurney who was the presiding judge whobasically when she was talking to uh thePress she was reading from the rulesthat judge McBurney said down what shehad to say she stuck to those rules andshe made it quite clear that she kept anopen mind she refused to even listen toany of the press reports about all ofthis during that time in terms ofwhether Donald Trump did anything wrongI mean right from the get-go he waslying both to the Secretary of StateBrad raffensberger about the fact thathe claimed that there was election fraudbecause right if dead people voting alawyer can can speak to the resultsthere or is that quote political no ofcourse that's what he's got to argue toa jury he somehow got to come up withsome way to get around the fact that hisclient liedforeign[Music]